tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post6864157680772824190..comments2024-03-28T10:49:14.510-05:00Comments on Horizons: I'd like to introduce Glenn Greenwald to Reinhold NiebuhrNancy LeTourneauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-625619894645295152012-01-09T13:49:04.373-06:002012-01-09T13:49:04.373-06:00Wel aslong as you believe in it.Wel aslong as you believe in it.blahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00570296063596828448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-65705463052948547702012-01-09T13:05:14.310-06:002012-01-09T13:05:14.310-06:00Forthewin
One other note:
If all you know about ...Forthewin<br /><br />One other note:<br /><br />If all you know about Niebuhr is what you've read on wiki and from Hedges, I suggest you delve a bit deeper.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-85770650018376615022012-01-09T13:03:40.107-06:002012-01-09T13:03:40.107-06:00Forthewin
(copying my response from the other com...Forthewin<br /><br />(copying my response from the other comment thread)<br /><br />Interesting then that Neibuhr was one of the people who greatly influenced Martin Luther King, Jr.<br /><br />http://www.peacemagazine.org/archive/v17n2p21.htm<br /><br /><i>In his final year at Crozer Theological Seminary in Chester, Pennsylvania (where he obtained a bachelor's degree in divinity), King studied Reinhold Niebuhr, a Protestant theologian who impressed him profoundly...King was intrigued by the key ideas in Niebuhr's theological book, The Nature and Destiny of Man (1941). He later recalled having been excited by Niebuhr's concept of man representing both a child of nature and a spirit who stood outside it. He felt that Niebuhr led him to a fuller understanding of group behavior, human motives, and the connection between power and morality. In King's own words: "Niebuhr helped me to recognize the complexity of man's social involvement and the glowing reality of collective evil."</i><br /><br />I suspect that Rev. King was a bit more adept than some of our current day leftist puritans at being aware that no human being is perfect, but there is still the potential to learn from our imperfect brothers and sisters.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-26419522708083793012012-01-09T12:59:44.399-06:002012-01-09T12:59:44.399-06:00http://www.truth-out.org/gospel-penniless-jobless-...http://www.truth-out.org/gospel-penniless-jobless-marginalized-and-despised/1326119215 <br /><br />"Niebuhr claimed that North America was a “virgin continent when the Anglo-Saxons came, with a few Indians in a primitive state of culture.” He saw America as being elected by God for the expansion of empire, and, as Cone points out, “he wrote about Arabs of Palestine and people of color in the Third World in a similar manner, offering moral justification for colonialism.”Forthewinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-55721482749647901232012-01-09T12:58:59.938-06:002012-01-09T12:58:59.938-06:00"Niebuhr was friendly to the white South, was..."Niebuhr was friendly to the white South, was not an active supporter of the civil rights movement and refused to sign petitions when asked by King." That's from the wiki article on Niebuhr, just to clarify what he was about. He was a red scare mongerer, who criticized McCarthy for not catching enough people in that shameful chapter in our history. He is also probably not the best person to look for moral guidance from on middle east policy: "As early as 1942, he advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Palestine and their resettlement in other Arabic countries." Please check out that new Chris Hedges article on Truthout (I left a comment on your other post about it as well). His perspective on Niebuhr seems closer to the truth.Forthewinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-63733340449429981302012-01-08T19:09:30.791-06:002012-01-08T19:09:30.791-06:00When you enter a conversation with someone for the...When you enter a conversation with someone for the first time and your best argument consists of calling them a sociopath, its clear there's no point to engagement. <br /><br />Buh-bye Tired.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-213040659995242942012-01-08T18:52:56.036-06:002012-01-08T18:52:56.036-06:00Tell it to the little girl visiting the US for sur...Tell it to the little girl visiting the US for surgery after being burned nearly to death by President Obama's drone strikes: "Shakira was one year old when Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Barack Obama ordered the 2009 drone strike in Pakistan's Taliban-infested Swat valley that nearly killed her." http://reason.com/blog/2011/12/22/little-girl-mutilated-by-obamas-drone-wa <br /><br />Oh, and make sure to explain to her that she's just "collateral damage." Seriously, no Liberal treats the victims of war as "unpeople" the way Smartypants here does. Shameful. Look at that picture of Shakira before you swallow any of what this sociopath is selling.TiredOfGamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-88032550614626960902012-01-02T09:19:58.609-06:002012-01-02T09:19:58.609-06:00I see the greenwald warriors have strapped on thei...I see the greenwald warriors have strapped on their Birkenstocks and trotted over to defend the boy from ipenema. You folks should think about the olympics. - the amount of twisting and turning you have to do to fawn after either greenwald or pa and sftill consider yourself a progressive should qualify you for the silver medal, at least.LACnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-53268361014042945902012-01-02T09:07:15.944-06:002012-01-02T09:07:15.944-06:00Gee, such a lovely little post here. If only we w...Gee, such a lovely little post here. If only we were in some little college campus discussing this in Philosophy 101.<br /><br />This entire notion that we must defeat Al Queda by bombs and invading and killing and terrorizing is so misplaced as to render you useless. Ther is no defeating Al Queda. Just as there is no defeating crazy or the desire to be free.<br /><br />Every single day our troops remain over there is another day a radical is created who wants our destruction. Every Freedom Bomb dropped by a Drone of Liberty creates another Freedom Fight, er, I mean terrorist who wants to kill us.<br /><br />You see, we will never be able to eliminate evil in the world. Because really, what is evil? Using that loose metric, then the US should be the first to be eliminated what with the atomic bombs and genocide and so on.<br /><br />So make your beef with Geenwaldwald and accuse him of living in a fantasy world. But it's very easy: end the stupid War on Drugs and Wars on Muslims and so on.El Tiburonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-42410712873085659692012-01-02T08:24:02.338-06:002012-01-02T08:24:02.338-06:00Can you make a few more excuses for people not doi...Can you make a few more excuses for people not doing what is humanly right and just?<br /><br />"The pursuit of social righteousness would, he believed, inexorably involve them in acts of sin and imperfection. Not because the end justifies the means, but because that was simply the way of the world."<br /><br />The world may be that way, but it is perpetuated with your vein of thinking which effectively supports the ongoing crimes of a relative few. Nor need the world be that way if you, and others with your 'I live in the real world' motif, actually had the intellectual courage to stand tall and hold fast to your highest principles.<br /><br />Regrettably, you are blind to to your own collusion with the men who commit the greatest of crimes, some even getting the Nobel Prize for making a speech on war. Three simple words should be enough to strike a chord in all minds of our culture: "Do unto others...". Be the man or woman you truly want to be, and if we all did just that, we would not be having this discussion.<br /><br />I.M. LoosIM Looshttp://balladofigbymac.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-44880012310550938582012-01-02T07:21:10.045-06:002012-01-02T07:21:10.045-06:00Smarty pants, brilliant essay. As a person who al...Smarty pants, brilliant essay. As a person who always has a middle finger response to greenwald and his insufferable minions, I appreciate your attempt to dialogue and measured response to one of his patented screeds. I may not agree with all the president"s decisions, but appreciate his thought process and the seriousness in which he takes his position thank you again!LACnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-34051054586275934902012-01-01T21:10:17.285-06:002012-01-01T21:10:17.285-06:00Also: http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=44Also: http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=44Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-2424141720008829042012-01-01T21:04:07.321-06:002012-01-01T21:04:07.321-06:00@Um
Good point: "Collateral Damage" is ...@Um<br /><br />Good point: "Collateral Damage" is the epitome, in many ways, of a kind of political newspeak.<br /><br />However, it expresses precisely what McClay intends. <br /><br />If speaking in euphemisms is a part of political discourse, then rejecting them - as libertarians would do - is also a rejection of that discourse, in other words, a decision not to participate.<br /><br />Greenwald seems to believe that, by simply refusing to participate, one could ride oneself of the messiness of "collateral damage," in this case, the blood of innocent Muslim children. This, I believe, is a naive position. [At best - in Ron Paul, I think it is actually more malicious than that.] <br /><br />Collateral damage exists to be measured, weighed, calculated, and used to help us make informed political decisions. To dismiss it as merely empty or pernicious language is to rid oneself of the responsibility of making weighty decisions that have very serious consequences.<br /><br />-8:22Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-57257731317469487122012-01-01T20:37:50.871-06:002012-01-01T20:37:50.871-06:00Anonymous @ 8:22
That line you reference reminds ...Anonymous @ 8:22<br /><br />That line you reference reminds me that we always have to remember that everything is the universe is connected. That's one of the reasons why we always have to weigh the collateral damage resulting from any intervention. And yes, weighing those is where the struggle is centered.<br /><br />As we saw with the situation in Libya - doing nothing also has potential consequences that have to be weighed.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-80718011080821023642012-01-01T20:29:56.043-06:002012-01-01T20:29:56.043-06:00I still can't believe people actually use the ...I still can't believe people actually use the term "collateral damage" seriously. I figured that by now most people had read this essay: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htmUmnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-54639089159168467292012-01-01T20:22:35.694-06:002012-01-01T20:22:35.694-06:00My favorite line: "Even the most surgical act...My favorite line: "Even the most surgical action creates collateral damage." This doesn't mean that that damage ought to be dismissed or not taken into account. Instead, it recognizes the fact that every political act has consequences both intended and unintended, desirable to some end or undesirable.<br /><br />I am unsure how I feel about drone attacks. I agree that they are efficient in destroying al-Qaeda, which I take to be a worthwhile goal. But I also believe that al-Qaeda would be more efficiently destroyed through supporting native, pro-democracy movements in Yemen, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.<br /><br />The question that I wish Greenwald would seriously consider is: What would the collateral damage of his preferred policies be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-41561536193274190402012-01-01T20:22:13.448-06:002012-01-01T20:22:13.448-06:00Good job.
I'm reminded of the character of Ll...Good job.<br /><br />I'm reminded of the character of Lloyd Dobbler from the movie "Say Anything". His character was defined by what the writer/directory called "Optimism as a Revolutionary Concept". The idea being that you can accept that the world is ugly but you don't have to accept the despair that seems to come with that understanding. And, if you choose to, you can fight back and make the world a slightly better place than it would otherwise be.<br /><br />I've given up on trying to save the world. But making things a little brighter for those around me is an achievable and acceptable goal.Chris Andersenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18139817527808942227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-79080947982838284662012-01-01T20:14:37.781-06:002012-01-01T20:14:37.781-06:00Um
I'm not interested in your judgments about...Um<br /><br />I'm not interested in your judgments about me or your desire to engage in some sort of empathy olympics. <br /><br />So I'll just say - have at it and flame away.<br /><br />If/when you'd like to talk about what I've actually written here, I might be interested in further discussion.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-46822270080053423512012-01-01T20:06:35.287-06:002012-01-01T20:06:35.287-06:00I read the full essay.
I don't see how what ...I read the full essay. <br /><br />I don't see how what you write in your latest comment negates what I say about the use of the "collateral damage" euphemism. The fact that some guy who holds the SunTrust Chair of Excellence in Humanities at the University of Tennessee uses the term means it isn't a euphemism designed to make murder respectable? <br /><br />You "struggle" and feel uncomfortable about drone strikes that maim and incinerate Afghans and Paikistanis. That must be very hard for you. I'm sorry for you have to deal with these uncomfortable feelings.Umnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-88907996697140388562012-01-01T19:46:21.542-06:002012-01-01T19:46:21.542-06:00Um
If you'll notice, the idea of collateral d...Um<br /><br />If you'll notice, the idea of collateral damage was introduced in the quote from Wilfred McClay about Niebuhr that was written 10 years ago. My use of it was merely a way to tie what I was saying back to Niebuhr's views.<br /><br />Your baggage is about reading into what I wrote things that simply aren't there. I guess you just skipped by the several times I talked about struggling and being uncomfortable with these decisions President Obama has made. Instead you want to paint me as something that doesn't relate to what I've said. My only conclusion is that those things must come from you because they are clearly not about me.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-18701525821069038312012-01-01T19:34:58.310-06:002012-01-01T19:34:58.310-06:00What does it cost you, then?
"Collateral dam...What does it cost you, then?<br /><br />"Collateral damage" is a euphemism designed to obscure what it's supposedly describing. Or at least to make brutal facts---death of civilians and destruction of property caused by warfare---more palatable. You must know that. ANYONE who uses the phrase "collateral damage" literally and unironically is speaking breezily and euphemistically. <br /><br />And what's this about baggage? What are you even talking about?Umnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-51901000703219141232012-01-01T19:31:38.767-06:002012-01-01T19:31:38.767-06:00Well done! Excellent!Well done! Excellent!princss6http://progressivepoc.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-51726186820638691652012-01-01T19:26:10.959-06:002012-01-01T19:26:10.959-06:00Um
You make a huge assumption that it doesn't...Um<br /><br />You make a huge assumption that it doesn't cost me anything. <br /><br />I have no idea where you got the idea that I refer to collateral damage "breezily." But it certainly has nothing to do with anything I said in this post.<br /><br />So I can only assume that's your own baggage on display.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-68683262617902300102012-01-01T19:18:11.549-06:002012-01-01T19:18:11.549-06:00...doesn't MAKE you a tragic Niebuhrian thinke......doesn't MAKE you a tragic Niebuhrian thinker, that is.Umnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-55342309827778967332012-01-01T19:17:10.813-06:002012-01-01T19:17:10.813-06:00You conflate accepting uncertainty and living with...You conflate accepting uncertainty and living with doubt with acceptance of what you breezily call "the collateral damages of our choices." <br /><br />Living in doubt and uncertainty means struggle, working through the ambiguity of the world and trying to make responsible choices. Living with "collateral damage" (which translated into plainer, less pre-fab English means tolerating the fact that the US kills massive numbers of civilians in its wars and drone campaigns) doesn't cost you anything. It's easy for someone living in America, far from the consequences of our decisions (as far as warfare and foreign policy go) , to "live with" those decisions. You don't have to face the consequences of these decisions. <br /><br />Accepting the fallen nature of the world is one thing. Tolerating aerial bombardment when you're far away from the aerial bombardment doesn't you a tragic Niebuhrian thinker. It just makes you insulated.Umnoreply@blogger.com