tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post8354414755991386000..comments2024-03-28T10:49:14.510-05:00Comments on Horizons: Tortured LogicNancy LeTourneauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-35034839425565831332012-05-28T16:58:27.262-05:002012-05-28T16:58:27.262-05:00Smartypants curses! Fer fuck's sake!Smartypants curses! Fer fuck's sake!Billhttp://freeandeasywandering.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-21320182264596226852012-05-28T12:30:59.330-05:002012-05-28T12:30:59.330-05:00Wading into the moral sewage and sacrificing his m...Wading into the moral sewage and sacrificing his moral purity in the process - WOW. That pretty much nails it, doesn't it?<br /><br />I've had that feeling about what he's faced with Gitmo prisoners as well. Same with Wall Street and the financial mess. <br /><br />It was quite a fucking sewer he walked in to. And then along come the purity police wagging their finger at him. Fuckers!!!!<br /><br />OK, its out of my system for a while ;-)Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-46374155838183471382012-05-28T12:16:27.743-05:002012-05-28T12:16:27.743-05:00Thanks Suzanne.
You took me right to the words of...Thanks Suzanne.<br /><br />You took me right to the words of what too many consider to be a children's song.<br /><br /><i>let peace begin with me<br />let this be the moment now<br />with every step I take<br />let this be my solemn vow<br />to take each moment<br />and live each moment<br />in peace and harmony<br />let there be peace on earth<br />and let it begin with me</i>Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-84431724713337094602012-05-28T12:09:47.001-05:002012-05-28T12:09:47.001-05:00This strikes me as the point. The morality of war...This strikes me as the point. The morality of war is easy. Was is deeply immoral. Why? Because it involves killing people.<br /><br />Then, you get to the technical questions, which is where it becomes intense. We know it's immoral, but when is it the correct action and, then, how should it proceed? Moreover, how and when should it end?<br /><br />I might have liked a quicker timetable on ending the two wars, but I realize that there was going to be a timetable. OK, so be it. If we are working with what actually is, the general tack the President is taking doesn't seem too far off. It is, however, deeply immoral. He knows this. My ex used to say in admiration of him that he was willingly wading into real sewage so that he could make good decisions in that context, sacrificing his moral purity in the process. It's true, I think.Billhttp://freeandeasywandering.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-14437988740927460522012-05-28T12:01:41.901-05:002012-05-28T12:01:41.901-05:00In that second paragraph from the bottom I meant t...In that second paragraph from the bottom I meant to add that even if the issues came up before or that civilians have always been killed in war -- that doesn't mean it's justified. It's important to consider what we are doing and make the best choice we can.Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12130159732026998535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-78249757223376529262012-05-28T11:54:51.917-05:002012-05-28T11:54:51.917-05:00What an excellent discussion. And at the end you h...What an excellent discussion. And at the end you had the answer I came up with in my life. When I was in college I was a peaceful protester of the war in Vietnam. I didn't condemn anyone who went to war--I just wanted to make a world where war wasn't considered a solution. I'm 64 years old and I still think it's possible that our thinking can be transformed and we could have global peace, but I don't think anyone can "make" everyone else choose peace. I don't think pushing against war makes peace. It may stop that conflict, but it doesn't create the mindset that will make others choose peace.<br /><br />I really do believe Ghandi and his advice to "be the change you wish to see in the world." I don't see it as anyone else's job to create peace, it is my responsibility to create peace in myself and to offer that to the world. People like Ghandi and the Dali Lama influence just by being who they are as well as by their words and actions. And for me, President Obama does the same. I am uplifted by his words and who he is.<br /><br />There have been other times in history when man had to confront the morality of war and the means of fighting. It was considered manly and heroic to fight hand to hand. Weren't these same issues brought up when tanks and bombs began to be used? Probably happened when fighting went from swords to guns so that men wouldn't have to directly confront each other. And there has always been civilians killed during wars.<br /><br />I very much like President Obama's thoughts on war and peace. And I agree that I want the Commander in Chief to be like him, one with heart, compassion and intelligence making those decisions. As individuals it's up to us to create the world we want to live in -- however big or small our influence is with others -- it's our choice.Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12130159732026998535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-14047453764904101312012-05-28T10:40:15.942-05:002012-05-28T10:40:15.942-05:00When do we get to stop saying GG is a member of th...When do we get to stop saying GG is a member of the Left? Can't we just say he's a rightwingnutjob now?Tien Lenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-44329855797348399662012-05-28T10:15:13.218-05:002012-05-28T10:15:13.218-05:00Its a tough argument to make - this bad or less wo...Its a tough argument to make - this bad or less worse - that you talk about. <br /><br />But its actually the absolutists who think there is some "good" argument that disturb me...as if killing someone could ever actually be good or moral. It might occasionally be justified, but then up pops those questions you've identified in your alternative.Nancy LeTourneauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12614317154146836694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-74721304236441532882012-05-28T10:07:42.064-05:002012-05-28T10:07:42.064-05:00So, if I've got this right, the really, really...So, if I've got this right, the really, really terrible thing is that people are <i>willing</i> to defend targetted killing, despite the irreversible killing it involves.<br /><br />So obviously we should do the alternative: sending teams of special forces in to capture suspected targets without the use of lethal force. And of course the large deployment of regular troops to back that up which is implied.<br /><br />So invasion is preferable to drone strikes? What scale is he working from?<br /><br />And as you've noted, the idea of 'consent' in war is pretty outdated, if not outright bizarre. Nobody, by definition, 'consents' to being invaded.<br /><br />Why is it so difficult to recognise the difference between 'bad' and 'less worse'? I don't like drone strikes, but <i>given where we are</i> it's the best option available...sibusisodannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7163441833245663827.post-40355341185912152632012-05-28T10:01:06.223-05:002012-05-28T10:01:06.223-05:00Typically, people for whom questions of morality a...Typically, people for whom questions of morality are easy, are those who already know the final result they want to end up at, and simply craft their preceding discussion so as to magically end up there.<br /><br />Whether it's well-crafted or poorly crafted is of no moment - it's thoroughly dishonest in either case.sherifffruitflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14676077292357887614noreply@blogger.com